Thursday 16 April 2015

How old is Crom Dubh

The worship of Crom Dubh or Crom Cruiach, the old Irish god of agriculture, is most closely associated with Tigernmas, sometimes called Tiernmas, the Irish high king who is said to have perished while worshiping this god. But where and when did the worship of Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh originate? 

The old Irish annals tell us that the first race that lived in Ireland were Fomorians. Then, after the flood, came the people of Partholón who are credited with introducing cattle husbandry, ploughing, cooking, dwellings, trade, and dividing the island in four. But then Partholon and all his people later died of plague leaving Fomorians as the single inhabitants of Ireland. Then The people of Nemed came, the descendants of the brother of Partholon, and they found Fomorians living in Ireland. They fought the Fomorians under Nemed and won. But after Nemed's death, Fomorians enslaved Nemed's people and demanded a heavy tribute: two thirds of their children, grain and cattle. The tribute that Nemedians had to give to Fomorians was exactly the same as the tribute Tigernmas had to give to Crom Dubh. Nemed's son gathered an army of sixty thousand, rose up against them. After a great slaughter on both sides, only thirty of Nemed's people escaped in a single ship, scattering to the other parts of the world, leaving again only Fomorians in Ireland. Well actually the Lebor Gabála Érenn says that when the next invaders, the Fir bolg, came then found Ireland empty. But Lebor Gabála Érenn also seems to suggest that Fir bolg and Fomorians were one and the same people. At least Macalister, the translator and editor of the Lebor Gabála Érenn thought that this could be so when he says that:

"The line between the Fir Bolg and the Fomorians is not clearly drawn…"

What is also very interesting is that Fir Bolg are also said to have been the descendants of Nemed who was the descendant of Partholon's brother. This makes Fomorians and the people of Partholon one and the same people. 

We have to ask ourselves why are the Fomori most directly linked to Fir Bolg. The Lebor Gabála Érenn states:

"Partholon took Ireland: he dwelt there five hundred and fifty years, till the  Cynocephali (dog headed, wolf headed) drave him out, and there escaped [survived] not one of his children alive."

Who were these wolf people?  Macalister suggests that “the Cynocephali introduced into the subsequent Partholon story have no place in the orthodox narrative, unless we are to equate them to the Fomoraig. What is the old Irish word for wolf? It is "faolchú". In Slavic it is Vuk, Volk, Vlk. Slavs have long tradition of ware wolfs. Slavic warriors wore wolf skins. These are the berserkers from the Norse legends, people wearing wolf skins as part of their war attire. 

The Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), another term associated with berserkers, mentioned in the Vatnsdœla saga, Haraldskvæði and the Völsunga saga, were said to wear the pelt of a wolf when they entered battle. Úlfhéðnar are sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: "[Odin’s] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk.'" In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts (below) a scene of Odin with a berserker—"a wolf skinned warrior with the apparently one-eyed dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang... and the god Odin"—with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features.

This is Vendel era bronze plate found on Öland, Sweden, thought to represent Odin, Vodan with wolf warriors. 

In my post about Odin I wrote about the the fact that the etymology of the name Odin, Vodan comes from Slavic languages. Are these the same wolf people, Fir Volk from Irish legends?

Serbs in particular believe that they descend from Van, the man who could shift into a white wolf, who was the son of Dabog, Hromi Daba who I believe is the the same as Crom Dubh. Dabog was also known as a wolf shepherd. Appropriate god for Fomorians who according to The Lebor Gabála Érenn: 

"made a sheep-land of Ireland". 

And the Biggest Slavic tribe which is mentioned in relation to the Samhain human sacrifices are called Volci, Vilci, wolf people...Could it be that Fir Bolg are Fir faolchú actually Fir volk, Fir voulk, wolf people, wolf head people? We have seen already that when words cross from irish into serbian the b turns into v and g turns into k. We have a general hardening of sounds from Slavic to Celtic. That this is the case suggests the fact that the Fir Bolg are first mentioned in the 9th century Historia Brittonum, where they are referred to as the Builc...

Then came the Tuatha Dé Danann, another group of descendants of Nemed who was descendant of Partholon's Brother. They defeated the Fir Bolg in the first Battle of Magh Tuiredh and took possession of Ireland. But then they had to defeat the Fir Bolg again, this time under the name of Fomorians at the Second Battle of Magh Tuireadh. Interestingly the Annals of Loch Cé call Magh Tuiredh "Magh-Tuiredh-na-Fomorach" and explain that Magh-Tuiredh what the place "where the Fomorians were imposing their tributes on the men of Erinn..." The name Mag Tuired (modern spelling: Magh Tuireadh) means "plain of pillars" or "plain of towers". Crom Cruach was represented by a large idol, made completely of gold, which stood on the plain of Mag Sleact, which is in Cavan County in Ulster , Ireland . Twelve smaller idols, these of stone, formed a ring around the Crom Cruach. Were pillars which were standing on this plain the same pillars representing Crom Dubh, Crom Cruach???

At the end of the Second Battle of Magh Tuireadh, Bres, the leader of the Fomorians was found unprotected on the battlefield by Lugh, the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann. Bres pleaded for his life with him. Lugh spared Bres because he promised to teach the Tuatha Dé Danann agriculture. Bres is said to have possessed the the secret knowledge of "How shall the men plough?  How shall they sow?  How shall they reap?". He gave that secret to Lugh, the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann and his life was spared. 

What is interesting about this story is that both Bres, the leader of the Fomorians and Lugh the leader of Tuatha Dé Danann at the Second Battle of Magh Tuireadh were half Fomorian and half Tuatha Dé Danann.

Lugh's father was Cian of the Tuatha Dé Danann, and his mother was Ethniu, daughter of Balor, of the Fomorians.
Bres's father was Elatha of the Fomorians and Eri, daughter of Delbaith of the Tuatha Dé Danann.

This means that the Tuatha Dé Danann, who are said to have replaced Fomorians as the rulers of Ireland actually claim descent from or at least close kinship with the Fomorians. Actually the line between the Fomorians and the Tuatha 
Dé Danann is so blurred, that in the "lebor gabála Érenn" we read:  

At the end of three days and three nights thereafter the Sons of Míl broke the battle of Sliab Mis against demons and Fomoraig, that is, against the Túatha Dé Danann"...

This line literally equates the Fomorians and the Tuatha Dé Danann.

From the above story we see that if Fomorians were indeed related to Partholon, then it was the Fomorians who brought the secret of the grain agriculture to Ireland and preserved it until the time of Tuatha Dé Danann. We also see that when the Milesians came to Irleand, the Fomorians were still there. Lebor Gabála Érenn tells us that the Irial Fáid father of Ethriel and grandfather of Tigernmas:

"...cleared twelve plains, dug seven royal forts, and fought four battles against the Fomorians..."

The Fomorians were apparently still in Ireland at the time of  Cú Chulainn. In the medieval Irish tale entitled "The Training of Cú Chulainn", preserved as a copy by Richard Tipper in British Library, we read:

"Cúchulainn came to the place and saluted them. 'What is this sorrow or the misery upon you?' says Cúchulainn. The damsel answered and this she said: ‘A royal tribute which the tribe of Fomorians carry out of this country every seventh year, namely, the first-born of the king's children. And at this time it has come to me to go as that tribute, for to the king I am the dearest of his children.’‘What number comes to lift that tribute?’ asks Cúchulainn. ‘Three sons of Alatrom of the Fomorians,’ she answers, ‘and Dub, Mell and Dubros are their names.’"

Did Fomorians brought with them their god of grain agriculture, Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh and is this why the both Crom Dubh and Fomorians demanded the first born sacrifices? And if Tigernmas was worshiping Crom Dubh, was he worshiping Fomorian god? And if so, was Tigernmas a Fomorian king? I believe so. 

If the Fomorians were the people who possessed the secret of the grain agriculture and Tigernmas was the king who introduced the agricultural cult to Ireland which included the same types of sacrifices which were also demanded by Fomorians, that would certainly suggest that Tigernmas was a Fomorian king. James Bonwick thought so too. In the book "Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions" he identified Tigernmas, the king who perished while worhiping Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh, the god of agriculture, with Balor, the King of Fomorians. This is based on the fact that the ancestry of the god Lugh is usually given as Lugh son of Eithliu daughter of Balor but in the text Baile in Scáil it is given as Lugh son of Eithliu son of Tigernmas, thus equating Tigernmas and Balor, the king of Fomorians.

In the comments in the translation of the annals of the four masters by Owen Connellan we reed that in Ireland the sun was worshiped under the names of Bel, Beal, and Baal. Belenus (also Belenos) was a deity worshiped in Gaul, Britain, and Celtic areas of Austria and Spain. He was the god who brought light, who brought whiteness. The name comes from bel + nos = white, light + brings. Beltane was the Irish beginning of Summer festival, celebrating the beginning of the white, bel, part of the year. According to 17th century historian Geoffrey Keating, there was a great gathering at the hill of Uisneach each Beltane in medieval Ireland, where a sacrifice was made to a god named Beil which was again the same sun god Bel, Beal, Baal.

At the time of the writing of the Irish medieval manuscripts, the word Baal was commonly accepted to mean lord. This word is said to come from the Hebrew בעל (ba‘al, “lord, master, owner”), from Proto-Semitic *baʿl- (“lord, master, owner”). Baal was also the enemy of Yahweh, the Christian god, so the term was well known to the christian monks, and would have been used to describe the old gods, the enemies of the Christian god. 

So if a Christian monk wanted to write "a lord who brough gold into Ireland" he could have written this as baal + or = lord + gold. So we have the manuscript "Baile in Scáil" equating Tigernmas who is "the beautiful lord who brought gold to Ireland" with Balor whose name means "the lord of gold, or golden lord". Coincidence? If we know that Bel, Beal, Beil, Beli, Baal were all the names of the Sun god, the name Balor could also mean a "golden sun"...A fitting name for a sun god with a "blazing" eye... One last thing. Both Tigernmas and Bres mean beautiful. 

Tigernmas is sometimes referred to as the “culture king”, because it is said that he was the one who brought aspects of civilisation to Ireland including the smithing of gold and silver, the dyeing of fabrics, and the making of music and art. It seems that he could have brought the agriculture too. This would mean that it was the Fomorians who brought both agriculture and the metalwork to Ireland. 

According to the archaeological records, the grain farming arrived in Ireland in the fourth or third millennium bc. As for metallurgy, according to the archaeological records the copper metallurgy was brought to Ireland in the third millennium bc.

At the end of the 7th millennium bc, we find in the Balkans, in Serbia, a highly developed grain farming Blagotin culture, which was part of the early Starčevo culture.There are strong indications that this culture was a direct precursor of one of the direct precursors of the Vinča culture. Vinča houses had grinding stones and bread baking ovens indicating that the Vinča culture was both an advanced metallurgical and an advanced grain farming culture. It is quite possible that from the 6th millennium bc, metallurgy and grain farming spread together into Europe from Serbia? And if so then the metallurgy and grain farming really could have reached Ireland together, brought by the same people, the first inhabitants of Ireland, the Fomorians. 

So who were these Fomorians then and where did they come from? Irish historians agree that the name Fomorians means probably people of the sea, or people who came from across the sea, or sea pirates. Where could have been that land across the sea famous for its sea pirates whose name sounds like Fomori?

There is a country like that. It is south Baltic part of Germany, called Pomerania or Pomorje.

Pomerania, Pomorje is a Slavic word meaning the land by the sea. The word comes from po + more = by, along + sea. The people living by, along the sea are in Slavic languages called pomori, pomorci, pomorjani, meaning the sea people, coast people. 

This is the territory of Pomerania, Pomorje:

Pomerania (German: Pommern, Latin: Pomerania, Polish: Pomorze) is a historical region on the south shore of the Baltic Sea. The name Pomerania comes from Slavic po more, which means Land at the Sea. The adjective for the region is Pomeranian (Polish: pomorski, German: pommersch), inhabitants are called Pomeranians (Polish: Pomorzanie, German: Pommern).
This land was indeed famous for its sea pirates and traders. Pomerania is where we find Sorbs, northern Serbs who also worship Dabog (Dazdbog). These Baltic Slavs, Sorbs made human sacrifices in medieval time to their gods at the end of harvest at the beginning of November, at Samhain. Lebor Gabála Érenn says that "Tigernmas died in Mag Slecht, with three fourths of the men of Ireland in his company, on Samhain night to be particular, while worshiping of Crom Cruaich; for he was the king-idol of Ireland." During these Samhain ceremonies, human sacrifices were offered to Crom Cruaich, Crom Dubh.  Tigernmas is said to have been the first king to give drinking-horns to his follower. The god to whom Pomeranian Slavs sacrificed people on Samhain was Svetovid. He is sometimes referred to as Beli (or Byali) Vid (Beli = white, bright, shining), and is often depicted with a sword or bow in one hand and a drinking horn in the other. Drinking horn was used for divination during the Slavic ceremonies. In Slavic mythology, the "horn of plenty" is the equivalent of Dagda's "cauldron of plenty". Dagda is then in turn believed to be another name of Crom Dubh, Crom Cruach

There is a well established cultural distribution path Balkans - South Baltic (Pomorje, Pomerania) - Ireland which has been in operation since at least fifth millennium bc. I wrote about this in my posts about henges, in my post about wooden trackways, tochars and in my post about baba stone statues. I believe that the agriculture and metalwork probably followed the same distribution route, which means that the people who brought agriculture and metalwork could have been referred to as Fomori, Pomori.

It seems that the old Irish legends about Tigernmas the king of Fomorians bringing agriculture and metal work to Ireland could be true. Except that if they are true, then Tigernmas lived in the 3rd or 4th millennium bc. Is it possible that the Irish oral tradition has preserved records of events that happened 5000, 6000 years ago? Is it possible that metallurgy arrived in Ireland earlier than we think, at the same time when grain farming arrived? Or did grain farming arrive in Ireland later than we think, at the same time with metallurgy? 

Crom Cruach also known as Crom Dubh who was the Sun God,Thunder god but also the god of agriculture. One of the most important early Bronze Age monuments in Ireland, The Grange circle, was built as a temple dedicated to Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh.

When was the Grange circle built? If we knew when the Grange circle, the temple of Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh was built, that could help us determine how old Crom Dubh as a deity was. In my post about the Grange circle you can read that professor Ó Ríordáin postulated that the circle dated from the Late Neolithic and that it was built c. 2,200 B.C. Archaeologist Helen Roche, however, has suggested that the Grange stone circle was constructed in the Late Bronze Age (c. 1000 BCE) on a site that may have been sacred for thousands of years.

I believe that the building date proposed by Seán P. Ó Ríordáin (2200 bc) is much closer to the actual building date. I believe that the Grange circle was contemporary with the Newgrange and that was certainly built between 3200 bc and 2200 bc. However, additions and changes were probably made in the following millenniums as the worship of Crom Dubh persisted in Ireland up until the arrival of Christianity.

If the Grange circle was built in the 3rd millennium bc, then it would fall into the "pre flood" period which would make Crom Dubh a deity of Fomorians.

Grange circle was built as a giant threshing floor. Threshing floors were in the past used not only for threshing wheat but also as solar observatories and as ceremonial grounds used for agricultural cult practices. I wrote about this in my post about threshing floors. So it is only to be expected that the temple dedicated to Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh, the Sun God and Harvest god of Fomorians, the people who brought agriculture to Ireland, was built to resemble a giant threshing floor.

So is it possible that Crom Dubh is really 5000 years old deity? I believe so. We find aditional proof of the antiquity and the importance of Crom Dubh in the Serbian tradition where Crom Dubh is known as Hromi Daba. This is what Serbian tradition tells us about Hromi Daba:

According to the Serbian folk tradition, Hromi Daba was another name for the old god Dabog, Dajbog, Dažbog, Daždbog, the Giving God, the ancestral deity of the Serbs. Serbs believe that they descend from Dabog. 

Hromi Daba, Dabog was also said to be "the oldest devil and this is why he is also called "djed" meaning the elder, the ancestor". This means that the Serbian tradition claims that Hromi Daba is the the oldest god. With the arrival of Christianity the main old God of the pagan Serbs became the main Devil of the Christians. 

Hromi Daba is also "the devil from which all the other devils come from". This identifies Hromi Daba as the origin of all the other pagan gods. If Hromi Daba, Crom Dubh, Grom Div is really 5000 or 6000 thousand years old, that would make him at least a contemporary with the oldest deities in Evroasia and north Africa if not their origin. The fact that Crom Dubh is directly linked with the Bull cult makes it possible that Crom Dubh descends from much earlier bull cults which originated in Catalhuyuk and which were later found in Vinča. I will dedicate a whole post to this link bewteen the Crom Dubh and the Bull worship.

Hromi Daba was "the main enemy of god", "as powerful as the god in heaven" but aslo that he was "the king of earth". This identifies Hromi Daba as the main god of the pagan Serbs. Hromi Daba is said to "carry the sun on top of his spear" which identifies Hromi Daba as a sky god. Crom Dubh is in Ireland associated with solar circles and with the Croagh Patrick, the holy sun mountain. We know from the archaeological records that Croagh Patrick and the area around it was regarded as a holy place in the 4th millennium bc.

Hromi Daba, Dabog is also identified as Triglav, Trimurti, the three headed Sun, Thunder and Fire deity. Triglav is also identified as the main god of the Serbs. The three headed idols found in Ireland are identified as representations of Crom Dubh. This confirms that Triglav and Dabog, Hromi Daba are one and the same deity. According to the Serbian folk tradition, "god gave thunder and ligthning to St Ilija, to kill all the devils and he did so. Only Hromi Daba managed to escape". St Ilija is the Christian replacement of Perun, the thunder god of the pagan Slavs. As I already wrote in my post about Triglav, Perun is the third head of Triglav, the sun at its most powerful and dangerous, at the end of the summer. You can read more about this in my posts about Ognjena Marija and Threshing Floors. The day of Perun and St Ilija is the 2nd of August, which is in Ireland the day of Crom Dubh. In Indian tradition both Trimurti, Shiva and Agni are represented as three headed deities. In Europe Lugh, the thunder god was also represented as three headed. I believe that cruciform tumuluses which were built in Ireland in the 4th millennium bc were built as temples of the three headed god Triglav, Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba, Grom Div. But I will talk about this in a separate post in detail. 

 Another Serbian folk tale identifies the hill in eastern Serbia which was the home of the "Silver king", the demon of the mines, as Dajbog hill. This means that Dajbog, Hromi Daba was also a god of metalurgy. Serbian word "hrom" means lame and lameness was a common mallady aflicting the first metalurgists working with arsenic copper. This is why Serbian historian Veselin Čajkanović thought that Dabog was among other things the Smith god. Croagh Patrick, the holy mountain of Crom Dubh is also a gold mountain, as its top is very rich in gold. The 12th century "Book of Leinster", talks about the god called Crom Cruach, whose cult image, consisted of a gold figure surrounded by twelve stone figures. This deity was "propitiated with first-born sacrifice in exchange for good yields of milk and grain" and it is said that "High King, Tigernmas, along with three quarters of his army, have died while worshipping Crom on Samhain eve". The 9th century "Tripartite Life of Saint Patrick" talks about the deity called Cenn Cruach, which is another name of the Crom Cruach, Crom Dubh. The book says that Crom had a cult image which consisted of a central figure covered with gold and silver, surrounded by twelve bronze figures. This i believe identifies Crom Dubh as a deity linked with metalurgy as well as with agriculture, but also as a solar deity. 

In the biographies of the Bishop Otto fon Bramburg, who converted Western Slavs (Sorbs) in the South Baltic, in Pomerania we can find more information about the god Triglav (Dabog, Hromi Daba). All three biographers ( Ebo , Herbord and an unnamed monk from the monastery of Priflinger ) have witnessed the existence of a three-headed idol in Wolin and Szczecin. Ebo said that the city of Wolin is situated on the slopes of three hills, and that it has a temple dedicated to a deity with three heads, which was called God Triglav („...deo Triglavo dicitus, tricapitum habebat...“). The same author says that Otto von Bamberg destroyed the idols, by chopping the heads off with an axe. He then sent the three silver coated heads to the pope Calixto II in Rome, as evidence that his mission of converting Polabian Slavs (Sorbs) was successful. According to Ebo, Triglav is the highest Slavic God ( " summus Deus " ), the ruler of the three worlds (heaven , earth and the underworld). The statue was made of wood, that it's three heads were encrusted in silver, and that it's heads were covered with the "tiara" or some kind of a hat made of gold, which covered the idol's eyes.

In the town of Stettin were three hills, the central one being dedicated to Triglav, the chief local deity. This idol was of gold and had three heads, while its eyes and lips were covered with a golden veil. The pagan priests declared that Triglav ("Three-Heads") was tricephalous because he wished to make it known that he ruled over three realms, i. e., heaven, earth, and the underworld; and he covered his face because he would not see the sins of men. The temple of Triglav was built with wonderful skill. On the inner and outer sides of the walls were various embossed figures of men, birds, and animals, so well made that they seemed to live and breathe. Their colour was always fresh and durable, and could be damaged neither by rain nor by snow. According to the custom of the ancestors one tenth of all booty was stored in the treasury of the temple, and there was, moreover, an abundance of gold and silver vessels used by the chieftains on festive occasions, as well as daggers, knives, and other rare, costly, and beautiful objects. In honour of and in homage to the gods colossal horns of wild bulls, gilded and adorned with precious stones, were kept there, some serving for drinking vessels, and some for musical instruments.

The fact that Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba is both the Solar Agricultural god and Smith god is understandable if we remember that Farming and Agriculture spread together from the Balkans.

In Serbia Hromi Daba, Dabog was finally "killed" by St Sava, who became the patron saint of Serbia. In Ireland Crom Dubh was finally "killed" by St Patrick, who became the patron saint of Ireland.

So how old is Crom Dubh? Is Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba, Grom Div realy a 5000 or even 6000 thousand years old Deity? Did Crom Dubh, Hromi Daba, Grom Div arrive to Ireland from the Balkans with the  the first farmers and metallurgists to reach Ireland in the 4th or 3rd millennium bc?  What do you think?

And if Crom Dubh really is 5000 or even 6000 thousand years old, isn't it amazing that his cult managed to survive in Ireland and Serbia and only in Ireland and Serbia, until medieval time?

The Irish word "dar" means by, in a sense "i swear by". This word is used in swears and oaths and invokes the god as a witness. There are several versions of this swear all with the same meaning "by God": "Dar Dia", "Dar Duach" and "Dar Crom".

"Dar Dia". Dia is the Irish word for God which comes from Old Irish día (“god”), from Proto-Celtic *dēwos (compare Welsh duw), from Proto-Indo-European *deywós. So no surprises here. 

"Dar Duach". Duach is the Irish word with an interesting etymology. In Irish it is said that it comes from du- , do- prefix which denoting badness of quality, Irish, Old Irish du-. In Welsh we find the word duach as comparative form of du which comes from Proto-Celtic *dubus (“black”) (compare Old Irish dub, Irish/Scottish Gaelic dubh), from Proto-Indo-European *dʰewbʰ meaning black. So this would make "Dar Duach" mean By Dark Lord, By Evil Lord...Interesting don't you think? Were people really swearing by the Dark Lord? I don't think so. I don't think that this is the true meaning of the word Duach in this phrase. In Slavic languages the word Duh means spirit, ghost and it comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *dʰeus meaning breath or the root *deywós meaning god. So no surprises here about the meaning. 

In the end we have "Dar Crom". That Crom is still used in Irish to mean God is a big surprise. After all the attempts to eradicate the belief in Crom Dubh from Ireland and to turn the oldest sky god of Evroasia into the Dark Lord, the Devil, the Evil king of the Earth, the Irish languages still managed to preserve the true meaning of Crom Dubh in this one little phrase: Dar Crom = By Jove...
Crom is not the Devil, he is the God, and not just any God, but Jove, the Sky god, the god in Heaven, the Thundering Sun Giant.


  1. Robert Graves believed Crom was Cronos or Bran. That ancient God probably goes back to the Mesolithic. It is thought that the Hebrew Yahweh was originally the head of an ancient pantheon, and was also a form of Cronos.

  2. I think that both versions Dubh and Daba come from old slavic word DUMB which means Oak Tree and today it is just Dub. I forgot which period it was that MB is exchanged with just B or M but it can be found under ZOMB (zub-tooth) DUMB (dub-oak) and many other changed old words.
    If Dubh or Daba are realy Oak Tree then there is no saying how old this legend is.
    In Hebrew Torah that Oak is a "burning bush".
    Oak exist in lots of naratives as protector from lightning so it is very possible that Crom is Grom. C and G are interchangable.

    1. Thank you for your comment Kasanda.

      If you think about it, oak dub is, in a way, a grom div = thunder giant. The biggest tree of Europe which attracts thunders. It was also the main food tree of the old Europe when people ate acorns as main starch food. Oak is still venerated in Serbia as a holy tree and is actually addressed as god during the Christmas oak cutting ceremony. Christmas is in Serbia directly dedicated to Hromi Daba, Grom Div. So there is a definite link between oaks and Hromi Daba, Crom Dubh. But I still believe that Grom Div was a sky god whose earthly representation was Oak...

  3. you made me smile when you said about "oak cutting ceremony" cause when you cut oak or any wood you can see circles inside that tell us exactly how old tree is, we have a name for that, each circle is GOD.

    1. Every year one tree ring. In Serbian: Svaka godina jedan god... :). Look at Serbian dictionary and find all the words with the root god. Now imagine that "god" part in those words actually means god (bog). Try to derive the meaning of these words from it...Interesting don't you think? How is this possible? Ugodno veče :)

  4. Hvala :))
    It is cause Slavic people are Goths. I do have proofs beside obvious names with IC ending in Gothic rulers. Polish royal family tree begins with Libussa -the gothic queen.(Ljubica)
    There are people on roman stelas with IC ending.
    SKI is Scytian extension, also Slavic today.
    I intend to write a lot, not new to this.
    Have a nice eve. :)

  5. In England there are lots of ancient structures with the name Gryme or Grim, Grimespond on Dartmoor, and many Grymes/Grimes Dykes and Ditches and of course Grimes Graves in Norfolk. It's not a big step from Crom to Grim or Grym. Grim and Gryme are said to mean Devil, the names going back to the Anglo-saxons. Also lots of Devil's Dykes and Ditches.

    1. Thank you very much. This is very interesting

    2. Grim is also a Nordic namename for Odin

  6. In the Slavic pantheon, Svantovit is referred to as Beli or Byali, meaning white, bright or shining. I can trace Svatovit's origin, as Vit or Vid, back to the "original" sun god and his partner/sister of rain and life-bringing water. Vit and Vita (Vid and Vida a/k/a Devac and Deva, Seibog and Siva, Dazbog and Dziva) Dazbog and Dziva have more connections with the "dark half" of the year (the waning sun.) So the fact that in Celtic lore you have *both* Bel and Crom Dubh that would mean the "original" solar deity goes back even *further* than 4,000 BCE. Pretty amazing!

  7. BTW... Crom is Dagda. Check your early source material.

    1. Dagda was Tuatha De Danaan, Crom was Fomorian..

    2. Mika Virpiranta (M.Sc.)
      Firstly I congratulate you of your eloquent and logical etymological deduction in dealing Crom Dubh/Cruagh, especially with Slavic connection.
      Better understanding cannot become gained without more data, and I wish to contribute some data more:
      1) In ancient world there was endless strife-competition-war between cults over a throne of supreme god of pantheon of myriad gods and goddesses. Two most powerful cults, and bitter rivals, has always been a thunder cult and a sun cult. For example, Unified Kingdom of Israel (established by David) split into Kingdoms of Israel and Kingdom of Judah, because Israelites preferred thunder god YHVH-Jove-Jupiter as only/supreme god, and Judahites Shamash the Sun. To shortcut corners, Judahites were supported by Sun-worshipping Assyria, Israelites were supported by thunder-worshipping Babylonia, etc.
      It is grave mistake to think YHVH as a Sun god! YHVH is exclusively a thunder god, sir!
      YHVH is based on Indian thunder king god Shiva-Indra-Rudra whom dravidians imported to Mesopotamia as they conquered Sumeria and established Elam (Susa) 2004 BCE.
      Abraham could have not been Chaldean because Chaldea existed 1000-550 BCE, and David's Unified Kingdom of Israel existed 1050-930 BCE. Thus Abraham was Elamite and his descendants the Hyksos conquered Egypt and later Canaan as Israelites.
      Noun "Israel" etymologizes as "Is (יִשְׂ)"= "to Possess" and "Ra" & "El" are nouns of Egyptian and Canaanite Sun gods. Thus "Israel" means "possessor of sun god-cults". This refers to fact that existential purpose of Israel is to possess-destroy Sun god-cults. This also proves that Israeli god YHVH is thunder god i.e. Zeus-Jupiter-Jove.
      Joseph Atwill proved that Christianity was created by Roman Flavian Dynasty and their turn-coat Jew Josephus. Messiah of Theology of Flavian Christianity was Jesus who was based on two persons, Titus Flavius and (in my opinion) on Canaanite Eshmun. Eshmun was Sun god son of Canaanite Sun god Dagon-El a.k.a. Crom Dubh. In Canaanite mythology Eshmun the healing-Sun god was archenemy of his brother Molok Baal Hadad the thunder god. Molok means King.
      Talmudic Church Fathers hijacked the Christianity since Nicea, and replaced intended god of Christianity i.e. the Imperial cult Sun god the Roman Emperor with Judaic thunder god YHVH again. Thus Jews replaced Vespasian the father of Jesus-Titus with their YHVH and turned Sun cult back into thunder cult again.
      So, it is paramount to keep this Sun cult-thunder cult competition always in mind.
      2) Baal-Lord is additive for all male deities, so it is paramount to add another descriptive noun or substantive to identify a Named-Lord of this-and-that. Kan-Con-Gon means "Snake" i.e. "Dra-Gon" means "Huge-Snake" referring to Constellation Serpens and Sun. In astrology Moon Nodes are called as Head and Tail of Dragon and they rotate opposite direction through many more constellation than Sun through traditional Zodiac. This Moon Node Zodiac was used as a syllabus of educating novices into living deities such emperor/king-gods. Noun Canaanite i.e. Can-An i.e. Serpent-Lord refers to this. Canaanites-Partholons colonized Palestine from Epirus i.e. modern Yugoslavia. Balkan etymologizes from Baal-Kan, Lord-Serpent, the Sun god of Slavs, the Crom.
      3) Crom is form of Cron with suffix "-us" i.e. "-lord": thus Crom is Cronus-Saturn the Black Sun, who castrated his father Uranus with obsidian sickle the cereal (wheat) harvesting tool, which Aztecs used to cut hearts out. Thus Crom Dubh cult priests probably also cut-sacrificed, too. Cronus-Saturn became ousted by his own son Zeus-Jupiter-Jove-YHVH the thunder god. Victims for thunder gods were burned alive as cases of Taranus (wicker men colossuses) and Zeus Lykaion prove.
      I hope you find this data useful.
      With best wishes, mv

    3. Good info but I have to correct two things: Not IHVH but El. "Elohim" is an old Hebrew name for God and it is ~plural~ and Emanuel was a battle-cry they used to evoke the Heavenly Host to ride into battle with them. In the Book of Genesis when God did anything, he said, "Let us..." Who was God talking to? The rest of Elohim. El, Bel, Ba'al, & cet. are an older Sumerian god named Anu. IHVH was the new iron age god who appeared to Moses and introduced himself as the lord, God, his creator. When Moses asked "What is your name?" the burning bush replied, "Eyah asher eyah," or something phonetically similar. "I am called I am?" The GREAT I AM? No. In the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation epic which inspired the Book of Genesis, it is said a god named Enki created human beings. The Sumerian name for this Enki-creator deity? Ea. "Eyah asher Ea," or, "I am called Ea." Ea is a river god, incidentally. Men were made of mud, mud comes from rivers. Anu is a storm deity, of course and his clan is called the Anunnaki. Lastly, just because words sound alike does not mean they are related. These are called "false friends." None of these Celtic words are related to any Semitic words. The etymologies are easy enough to find. And the Fir Bolg were Celts from an area of the mainland that is now Belgium.

  8. I was trying to find some background on the Fitzgerald motto "Crom A Boo." Referring to the castle or to the god?

    "In the end we have "Dar Crom". That Crom is still used in Irish to mean God is a big surprise. After all the attempts to eradicate the belief in Crom Dubh from Ireland and to turn the oldest sky god of Evroasia into the Dark Lord, the Devil, the Evil king of the Earth, the Irish languages still managed to preserve the true meaning of Crom Dubh in this one little phrase: Dar Crom = By Jove...Crom is not the Devil, he is the God, and not just any God, but Jove, the Sky god, the god in Heaven, the Thundering Sun Giant."

  9. You stated that you would post an article with the connections between bulls and Crom Cruach. Is this post yet?