tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post2494260398375398819..comments2024-03-28T02:45:00.618-07:00Comments on Old European culture: Krampusoldeuropeanculturehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-58459541594722076952023-12-12T00:54:34.281-08:002023-12-12T00:54:34.281-08:00Absolutely fantastic read!! Thank you so much for...Absolutely fantastic read!! Thank you so much for putting this all together, I always love your writings. Did you find anything about the origins of storks bringing babies btw? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-10831896793853051872022-11-21T14:50:20.085-08:002022-11-21T14:50:20.085-08:00AgriculturalAgriculturalOld European Culturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04958126874889654661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-90332839374669642072022-11-21T13:06:00.981-08:002022-11-21T13:06:00.981-08:00Una pregunta, ¿los sacrificios animales y humanos ...Una pregunta, ¿los sacrificios animales y humanos están más relacionados con las sociedades agrícolas neolíticas o con las sociedades cazadoras? Gracias.Dr. Ramséshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11196575867419961318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-10133172520475566282021-06-12T05:50:27.454-07:002021-06-12T05:50:27.454-07:00Check this out http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot....Check this out http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2019/01/new-house.htmloldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-86954721927103804022021-06-11T18:24:56.204-07:002021-06-11T18:24:56.204-07:00RE: cockerel being killed for fertility
Have you ...RE: cockerel being killed for fertility<br /><br />Have you had any research into the constructions of izbas in Russia requiring a sacrifice before the house can be built? (They would use a chicken and bury its head under one of the cornerpost, if I'm remembering correctly.) They still have the tradition that a cat should be the first creature to enter new flats, and borrow cats from other people if needed.<br /><br />Would love to hear your take on the izba construction sacrifice lore.Katznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-75890956259759356482021-02-03T09:52:31.358-08:002021-02-03T09:52:31.358-08:00What I mean it that this is not a "fundamenta...What I mean it that this is not a "fundamental error" by any standard...Starting your comment with this makes me question your view of the world and your priorities...Should I write names of Chinese authors in Chinese symbols? Or Arabic authors in Arabic? Whether I spelled his name Rozalski or Różalski has nothing to do with the content of the article...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-72673852101832145962021-02-03T06:06:15.017-08:002021-02-03T06:06:15.017-08:00Maybe we'll have a laugh ... together ... afte...Maybe we'll have a laugh ... together ... after all, laughter is health!<br /><br />When you write your text, you expect, that it will become a source for substantive discussion. So don't be surprised that when you cite sources (no matter what at the moment) you do it inaccurately, someone points out a mistake.<br />This approach of the author to the reader, is unprofessional.<br />I have been reading your texts for many years and I think that you are doing a great job and mistakes happen to everyone, it's important to know how to react to them.<br />Coming back to the question of Rozalski or Różalski.<br />An individual without a name is nothing. Moreover, the law guarantees the author to protect the "ownership" of his work.<br />Moreover, I suppose you have a diacritical mark in your name? <br />I know that at this point you will probably say, "well, but those poor Western Europeans cannot pronounce our Slavic "clusters"". <br />Well, that's their problem (let them learn), not ours!<br />Let's take an example the other way:<br />Whether writing a text in Polish about a hypothetical artist named Bookish it will be correct when I write "Bukish" or "Bókish" , because that's how you pronounce it in Polish?<br />I guess probably not!<br />Best J.<br /><br /><br />jaroplhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15990551426350663371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-69304545799402568682021-02-03T05:26:42.867-08:002021-02-03T05:26:42.867-08:00this my comment related to that, what Peter wrote,...this my comment related to that, what Peter wrote,<br />unfortunately I wrote from the phone and didn't notice where it went ...jaroplhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15990551426350663371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-11149765434481822332021-01-31T15:29:23.302-08:002021-01-31T15:29:23.302-08:00Really? I don't know if I should cry or laugh ...Really? I don't know if I should cry or laugh at this comment...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-46097439901049661272021-01-31T15:28:37.965-08:002021-01-31T15:28:37.965-08:00You mean what I presented is not deep enough for y...You mean what I presented is not deep enough for you?oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-82412756672383970742021-01-31T10:05:10.829-08:002021-01-31T10:05:10.829-08:00the question of the goldenhorn is more complicated...the question of the goldenhorn is more complicated than it might seem at first glance, it's something deeper than a folk tale ...<br />https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Pamietnik_Literacki_czasopismo_kwartalne_poswiecone_historii_i_krytyce_literatury_polskiej/Pamietnik_Literacki_czasopismo_kwartalne_poswiecone_historii_i_krytyce_literatury_polskiej-r1984-t75-n2/Pamietnik_Literacki_czasopismo_kwartalne_poswiecone_historii_i_krytyce_literatury_polskiej-r1984-t75-n2-s191-205/Pamietnik_Literacki_czasopismo_kwartalne_poswiecone_historii_i_krytyce_literatury_polskiej-r1984-t75-n2-s191-205.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi7jPHH38buAhWOuIsKHXB0BxMQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0DRKIlElnHvO8p-5hMdy-J&cshid=1612115937656jaroplhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15990551426350663371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-16763704216849166362021-01-31T09:57:06.891-08:002021-01-31T09:57:06.891-08:00you have a fundamental error in this text, the aut...you have a fundamental error in this text, the author of the graphic is Jakub Różalski, not Rozalskijaroplhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15990551426350663371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-4418902071651875742021-01-19T01:50:57.487-08:002021-01-19T01:50:57.487-08:00There are some fairytale collections that predate ...There are some fairytale collections that predate 19th century. But it is with Romantics that the interest in folklore really started and this is when we see sudden mass collection of everything, from fairytales to folk poetry (lyric, epic, ritual), stories, sayings, riddles...<br /><br />You say "there is no mention of the goat play in the earliest recorded version of Goldhorn". Of course there isn't. Did you read my article about Goldhorn legend, it was linked from the Krampus article. I give the whole text of the legend. What I said is that it describes the meaning of the goat play. And in the Krampus article I explain what that legend actually means: it describes winter, three winter zodiac signs...Which by the way has nothing to do with stars, and everything to do with European climate...<br /><br />https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/p/zodiac.html<br /><br />Goat is linked with the beginning of winter and the beginning of the rain season (both start in Oct/Nov) and the regeneration, rebirth of nature in Eastern Mediterranean, North Africa, Arabia, Mesopotamia, Iran, Central Asia from early Neolithic...It is all over ancient artifacts linked with the tree of life and mother goddess...<br /><br />You should read some this stuff<br /><br />https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/p/animal-solar-year-markers.html<br /><br />In Continental Europe, because of the different climate and slightly different mating season of the Ibex goats, the goat was kept as the symbol of winter but it has lost its link to regeneration of nature. Except in Slavic folk tradition...<br /><br />For instance it is Slavic goat folklore that matches Norse goat legends and explains them<br /><br />https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2021/01/tanngnjostr-and-tanngrisnir.html<br /><br />This doesn't mean that Thor legends were derived from Slavic tradition...It means that Slavic tradition has preserved some very old common layers lost in other places...The Irish did the same...Some people are more traditional and stuck in their ways than others...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-24210556063050249642021-01-18T15:31:19.983-08:002021-01-18T15:31:19.983-08:00There were earlier collectors of folk tales than t...There were earlier collectors of folk tales than the second half of the 19th century:<br />Brothers Grimm published 1812/1815, Johann Karl August Musäus - German fairy tales published 1782 to 1786, Charles Perrault 1697 - Tales of Mother Goose, Giambattista Basile - Neopolitan fairy tales published posthumously 1634/1636. I'm sure there are many others.<br /><br />But my point was not about the date per se, but that you are not using the earliest recorded versions of such tales, but rather literary reworkings to try and tie together legends. As I said, there is no mention of the goat play in the earliest recorded version of Goldhorn - it has been added by some romantic author in one of its rewritings. It can't therefore be used as evidence of ritual play from Slavic countries. It may be there are other references that can, but they should each be analysed carefully, not accepted at face value.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-39623416650979692382021-01-18T08:53:29.369-08:002021-01-18T08:53:29.369-08:00:) You do know that it was in the 19th century whe...:) You do know that it was in the 19th century when folklore started to be collected and recorded properly...So how do you think you can prove that these legends, folk plays, folk songs are older or not? There is no way...<br /><br />So...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-52737525954009883342021-01-18T08:44:41.204-08:002021-01-18T08:44:41.204-08:00I wasn't going to add anything else, but I hav...I wasn't going to add anything else, but I have looked at the Slovenian Goldhorn/Zlatorog legend you mention. The first record of this seems to be a newspaper article in German published in Laibacher Zeitung, no. 43, February 21st, 1868. Scans of the paper are available on line. The author was Karel Dežman/Karl Deschmann and it was supposed to have been a local folk tale. Scholars who have looked at the tale as presented by Deschmann have concluded that it is largely a 19th century invention - either by Deschmann or his informant.<br /><br />However, even if we take the tale as presented by Deschmann as being unaltered, the elements of the tale are relatively simple. It does not describe a goat play. There were reworkings of the tale by both Slovenian and German authors which added further elements - but these are all later additions. So as I said the earliest reference in 1868.<br /><br />So, you'll need to come up with better evidence for the goat play to be a ritual play from Slavic countries.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-47053029067609501592021-01-17T12:39:56.319-08:002021-01-17T12:39:56.319-08:00I think we'll have to agree to disagreeI think we'll have to agree to disagreePeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-7261029410238186212021-01-17T12:17:32.684-08:002021-01-17T12:17:32.684-08:00So all these peasants from Serbia to Finland and f...So all these peasants from Serbia to Finland and from Austria and Germany to England all decided to perform the same "prank" at the same time "for a laugh"...That's amazing...<br /><br />Especially when we have clear explanation that this is not a prank but a ritual play from Slavic countries. For instance, Slovenian Legend about gold horn describes the content of the goat play as a legend...<br /><br />Anyway, I am wasting my time...<br /><br />For more pranks with goats have a look at <br /><br />https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2021/01/tanngnjostr-and-tanngrisnir.htmloldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-11604268282150731082021-01-17T09:07:29.785-08:002021-01-17T09:07:29.785-08:00That isn't necessarily easy - there are plenty...That isn't necessarily easy - there are plenty of differing dictionary definitions. However, you say:<br /><br />"All these rituals were part of agricultural magic and were taken dead seriously by the people..."<br /><br />I have found that there is no evidence for this in the particuar song that you quote. The Polish song was just that - a song published in 1840, apparently with no other information. After that, other authors have ascribed functions to it that may or may not have been the case - it is pure speculation. Even if it was part of a visiting custom, it does not make it a part of 'agricultural magic'. As with many other customs, the Old Tup & Old Horse plays first appear in the mid-19th century and seem to be about collecting money rather than having any deeper significance.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-80834787598016027042021-01-16T10:02:28.411-08:002021-01-16T10:02:28.411-08:00Sorry what exactly is a ritual for you? Sorry what exactly is a ritual for you? oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-1060185261183815712021-01-16T04:12:35.635-08:002021-01-16T04:12:35.635-08:00Never being one to refuse a challenge - here is wh...Never being one to refuse a challenge - here is what I have found out:<br /><br />The original of this song appears to come from "Villagers' Songs from the Daugava River: Third Book" Published 1840<br /><br />Google have kindly provided a free ebook at: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=-nFBAAAAYAAJ&rdid=book--nFBAAAAYAAJ&rdot=1 <br /><br />If I read it correctly the author asked the 'genteel ladies' of the area to collect songs from their servants. <br /><br />This song is in the 'Various Songs' Section, number 65.<br /><br />My best translation of the whole song - I'm sure Polish speakers can do better.<br /><br />Where the goat goes<br />Hoc goat hoc;<br />'There the rye gives birth,<br />Hoc goat hoc.<br /><br />Where the goat is around the corner;<br />Hoc goat hoc;<br />There is rye with a brogue,<br />Hoc goat hoc.<br /><br />Where the goat's foot,<br />hoc goat hoc;<br />and There the rye is digging,<br />Hoc goat hoc.<br /><br />Where the goat wanders<br />Hoc goat hoc;<br />There is rye over a bridge,<br />Hoc goat hoc.<br /><br />and the shooter wanted to lure<br />Hoc goat hoc; <br />And kill the goat,<br />Hoc goat hoc.<br /><br />What are you doing; horror,<br />Hoc goat hoc;<br />"Long live the goat,<br />Hoc goat hoc.<br /><br />I would argue that this is just a song for a bit of fun, possibly as part of a visiting custom - I didn't find any evidence that it was connected to a visiting custom, but that might be due to my lack of knowedge of the Polish language. It has similar elements to the Old Tup & Old Horse plays in England, but no evidence that it relates to a fertility ritualPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-54499252101136166922021-01-15T05:50:06.336-08:002021-01-15T05:50:06.336-08:00:) I am but a humble blogger...With little time......:) I am but a humble blogger...With little time...So if someone wants to do further analysis of things they read in my posts, and have time I don't, please be my guest...And post a link to your analysis here.<br /><br />The original in Polish:<br /><br />Gdzie koza chodzi – tam żytko rodzi,<br />Gdzie jej tropy – powstają kopy,<br />Gdzie zwróci rogi – wznoszą się stogi.<br /><br />One of the sources:<br /><br />http://lwj.edu.pl/pdf/zeszyty/zj_nr123.pdf oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-30744077731548177892021-01-15T03:31:14.077-08:002021-01-15T03:31:14.077-08:00But you just state that the song was sung in Polan...But you just state that the song was sung in Poland, giving no references - where, when, who collected it etc. If you want others to take your propositions seriously (and I'm not saying that they aren't correct), you need to do a lot more analysis. Or, if you have done the analyis, you need to show it.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-30295149555403912182021-01-15T02:17:14.771-08:002021-01-15T02:17:14.771-08:00I know Krampus article is long...Did you read all ...I know Krampus article is long...Did you read all the way through? I doubt it or you wouldn't be asking these questions...<br /><br />As part of the goat ritual in Eastern Europe, a ceremonial song is sang<br /><br /><br />Where the goat comes - grain will be born (will sprout, will grow),<br /><br />Where the goat comes - grain will double,<br /><br />Where the goat comes - grain stacks will rise.<br /><br />All these rituals were part of agricultural magic and were taken dead seriously by the people...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-78790861571975072062021-01-15T01:35:57.627-08:002021-01-15T01:35:57.627-08:00But where is your 'evidence' that the Slav...But where is your 'evidence' that the Slavic customs are fertility rituals and not just a bit of fun? You need to include early references rather than making general statements. <br /><br />I've just read your blog on 'walking sheafs of wheat' - you might be interested in the following videos I have taken over the years; https://vimeo.com/showcase/4116694 <br /><br />Also videos of Germanic customs in general (mainly fasnacht): https://vimeo.com/showcase/3798340 <br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676882957279106348noreply@blogger.com