tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post1454023982618310895..comments2024-03-28T06:30:58.474-07:00Comments on Old European culture: The youngest sonoldeuropeanculturehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-78731774424911244832020-10-18T23:16:22.088-07:002020-10-18T23:16:22.088-07:00Right. I was thinking that when these 2nd/last bor...Right. I was thinking that when these 2nd/last born sons were out ranging & mating foreign brides and producing 1st borns, they hadn't yet settled on big farms, so there was not much to inherit, but years later, prosperity would rise along with the youngest kids, who would be encouraged to stay and care for the parents by a stable & reassuring inheritance. DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-33445537835197529542020-10-15T01:31:28.064-07:002020-10-15T01:31:28.064-07:00Yes that was the norm...Except where it wasn't...Yes that was the norm...Except where it wasn't, like with Slavs...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-34922515617092962472020-10-14T19:04:03.853-07:002020-10-14T19:04:03.853-07:00Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've often thought ...Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've often thought that 1st born sons inherited the farm and some livestock, but later/lastborn sons were given breeding livestock and allowed pastorage to build their herds freely, and then frequently moved to better locales to start fresh, including getting new 'foreign' brides, as happened in Europe & the Levant.DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-30634478542867347182020-10-12T14:53:49.672-07:002020-10-12T14:53:49.672-07:00What doesn't make sense, is that no "Indo...What doesn't make sense, is that no "Indo-European herders" practiced Ultimogeniture...The only nomadic people who practiced it, Mongols, practiced is as one of tree different succession rules...So who are those "Indo-European herders" who "imposed ultimogeniture on the Slavs", who seem to be the only people who practiced it? Do you see what I mean?oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-7962157773470191552020-10-12T11:13:18.379-07:002020-10-12T11:13:18.379-07:00The notion would be that ultimogeniture makes less...The notion would be that ultimogeniture makes less sense in societies where land is the primary factor of production. Land was the primary factor of production in most of Europe and in the Levant. Land was not a primary factor of production for primarily pastoralist people in places that were land rich so that even if they did some farming too there was not land scarcity, so ultimogeniture could arise there. <br /><br />So, why were the Slavs different? <br /><br />The Slavs were different because despite being farmers themselves, they were ruled by Indo-European herders for whom land was not a major factor of production and the elite rulers set things like inheritance rules. Once this rule was in place for the Slavs, inertia set in and they continued that practice even though it was no longer optimal for them, perhaps because the monarchs who ruled them for centuries were tradition bound, or because land was not as scarce for the Slavs as it was elsewhere.<br /><br />The Slavs and other Indo-Europeans directly from the steppe carried ultimogeniture to the West with them and initially followed it. <br /><br />In most places in the West, like Greece and Germany, the economic reality that land was a scarce major factor of production overcame the traditions that the Slavs and other Indo-Europeans from the steppe brought with them. But the economically reality driven transition to primogenitor didn't happen in British towns because land was not a major factor of production in commercial oriented towns the way that it was in farming oriented rural areas, so the inertia of Western Slavic tradition continued in those towns.<br /><br />You can follow this analysis to the Hebrews as well. Legendary history describes them as a pastoralist people for whom land was not a major factor of production before migrating to Israel/Palestine. So, it makes sense that early on that they would be a people not disinclined to have ultimogeniture. But, after a while, they became a society of farmers and due to economic pressures, they transitioned to a primogeniture system just as the Europeans mostly did.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-43272123728051527672020-10-10T15:04:33.566-07:002020-10-10T15:04:33.566-07:00Sorry that doesn't make any sense...Sorry that doesn't make any sense...oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-56199411618163548772020-10-10T12:46:45.248-07:002020-10-10T12:46:45.248-07:00Because farming was predominant and land was scarc...Because farming was predominant and land was scarce, and farming scarce land was the basis for the wealth of the rulers who decided what the rules should be, in most of these societies. But the Slavs were ruled by herders (regardless of their own preferences) and those he retained the practice were more often urban.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-78194448909206631272020-10-09T23:38:57.286-07:002020-10-09T23:38:57.286-07:00Again, why didn't all the peoples do this then...Again, why didn't all the peoples do this then? Why is Primogeniture the main succession procedure?oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-14248415284880300152020-10-09T16:09:00.654-07:002020-10-09T16:09:00.654-07:00Perhaps established adult sons were capable of fen...Perhaps established adult sons were capable of fending for themselves in the societies where this practice developed, at the time of their parents' death, because inherited wealth wasn't terribly important in these economies or there was a practice of making lifetime gifts to older children when they became adults and established their own households. But if these economies were based more on labor than on capital wealth, then the wealth of dying parents wouldn't have been substantial enough to have much impact if divided among all of the sons. <br /><br />The fact that this was mostly an urban practice at its Western European extent, in towns where commerce and labor were economically important, unlike rural farmers for whom inherited land was most important, supports this analysis.<br /><br />However, the least well established youngest son who might be only a young adult, or even an adolescent when his parents died, might be the most likely to need economic life support through an inheritance (and the mostly likely to still be at home, giving the youngest son a logistical edge in controlling the inheritance as well), and out of fairness would have received the least benefit from lifetime gifts from a parent. In the pre-birth control world, the youngest son might have been born with parents in their late 30s or early 40s, and the life expectancy for adults in that era was probably around their 60s.<br /><br />Life expectancy at birth was often 25 to 35 years, but infant and child mortality was high, and people who survived to adulthood could live to as long as about 70 under ideal conditions. In crude averages, typical people had four or more children children, a quarter of whom died as infants, a quarter of whom died as children or young adults, sometimes after having children and sometimes not, and the rest of whom who survived well into adulthood. Only a little more than half of children born in premodern times survived to adulthood and had surviving children.<br /><br />Some semblence of ultimogenitor, if the parents die before all of their children have reached middle age, is a not uncommon way for trusts for the benefit of the children of upper middle class modern families to be handled (something I do regularly in my day job as an attorney).andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-48013589648294893502020-10-08T02:33:18.643-07:002020-10-08T02:33:18.643-07:00:) Seriously?:) Seriously?oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-82681228184877938212020-10-08T02:32:44.532-07:002020-10-08T02:32:44.532-07:00This is all amazing. But why didn't all the pe...This is all amazing. But why didn't all the peoples do this then? Why is Primogeniture the main succession procedure?oldeuropeanculturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07880222013739472782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-33098123264500132652020-10-07T15:59:34.729-07:002020-10-07T15:59:34.729-07:00Healthy, well fed chieftains used to have many kid...Healthy, well fed chieftains used to have many kids, bourne by many wives, over decades.<br /><br />By the time the big Daddy is obviously losing it, eldest offspring is already a bit long in the tooth, and politically neutered, for decades now, else they be gone. <br /><br />Former wives are dead or de facto banished, their clans too.<br /><br />If mom of the youngest son still has the old codger's ear, and she has a couple of brothers at the court, the kid is a shoe in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8743102750721348863.post-17241260326235757342020-10-07T07:06:09.565-07:002020-10-07T07:06:09.565-07:00A fairy tale that would be popular with the whole ...A fairy tale that would be popular with the whole family except the eldest son. Mothers seem to prefer their youngest, and fathers dote on them. Underdog stories have always been popular, since most people are not the eldest son.Tom Bridgelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13098048586042365606noreply@blogger.com